Yes, have heard my US family use the T-shirt understanding of heaven as exclusionist and hell as inclusionist. How did white evangelical theology get so twisted and degraded? Will they have to experience fleeing their homeland before they can grasp what's happening in our world?
I was searching for something to help me understand Christian Nationalists view of hell. This has been a very helpful article.
I'm a member of a "Fans of David Bentley Hart" Facebook group. Hart may be one of the most famous "universalist" Christian theologians (perhaps to underscore his universalism, Hart sometimes refers to himself as a "Vedantic Christian", to emphasize his love and respect for the theistic traditions in Vedantic philosophy.
Well, a Christian Nationalist showed up the other day, to express his belief that everyone who believes as Hart does will end up in Hell, being tortured for all eternity.
I visited this fellow's FB page, and first, asked him a question I often ask fundamentalists, "What does the phrase "In God we live and move and have our being" mean?" Hart takes this in a sense common to Vedanta, Sufism, Kabbalah, Christian mystics, etc, that the Supreme Divinity is all pervading, and resides in a special way deep within our hearts, with whom we can commune as eternal souls, and of course, goes hand in hand with the title of his book, "All Will Be Saved."
This fellow - I'll call him Joe - said the verse simply meant that we should follow Christ and be His disciple. This was so bizarre and such a non sequitur that I tried to engage him further, in as polite a way as possible.
I made a special effort over the 8 years I lived in Greenville, SC to talk with students at the fundamentalist Bob Jones University, who were always unfailingly polite. In my 50 years as a New Yorker, I don't think I ever met anyone in person who I knew to be a fundamentalist. I was so baffled and startled by their views (from young earth creationism to the idea that all who don't believe as they do will end up in hell) that I spoke with them quite regularly.
But honestly, I don't think in my 70+ years I've ever come across someone who spoke with such passion about how those who don't believe as he does (which comes to close to 8 billion people) would end up in Hell.
I later asked my friends at the Hart FB group - "Is this really some kind of sadistic schadenfreude? Is he really taking such pure delight in thinking of all the suffering and torture that will be inflicted on all who don't think of him? (I was particularly concerned as the nominee for Defense secretary seems to share this belief)
I heard one charitable explanation, and I wonder if this makes sense to y'all. Someone said often people whose lives have fallen apart, who then become "saved by Christ," are actually anxious that others believe as they do, and express their grave concern by warning people if they aren't saved as well, they'll end up in terrible suffering."
That sounded nice to me, but I've just heard too many fundamentalists seem to express a kind of subtle (or not so subtle) delight in the fact that non believers will suffer eternal torment.
IT's like that Trump supporter 1 year into his first administration, who said, "He's hurting the wrong people."
I wonder what others think about this attitude among Christian nationalists. Do you take a more charitable reading of their concern about non believers going to hell, take them as being more malicious, or some combination of the two?
Hi Don, thanks for reading & responding here. I grew up in BJU-adjacent fundamentalism. There was no shortage of hell talk, in preaching and dramas and everything else. Going a little deeper into that, elements of what is now called "Christian nationalism" I inherited as "Bible-believing Christianity." So these are my people in so many ways. What I can say is that in these spaces there's a commitment to the "reality of hell" that can issue in a lot of ways and is usually contradictory. Just like you've pointed out, I witnessed an earnest "solidarity" that emerged from what I often perceived to be a desire for people's best interests. If you hold, as many do, that eternal conscious torment is the default destiny of every living person absent an ascent to the name of Jesus, well that's not something to take lightly. And the urgency of efforts to evangelize are certainly part of that. But this very same "reality of hell" that is given preeminence in these spaces often issues in the political in a contradictory way, often couched in an insidious cavalier prejudice that holds out hell as a sort of "you'll get yours" sentiment. This sentiment reinforces in-group comfort and belonging. But at a more primal level, mapping doctrines of salvation across political difference is a wildly egregious form of theological malpractice. It's often just this simple. So when it comes to hell-dogma, I think the contradiction you're illuminating across this set of experiences is inherent to the particular understanding of the doctrine itself in these spaces. There's no resolving the contradiction without actually contending with the dogma of hell in Christian confession.
Most of the time we are on the same page, Jared. Academically, I can see where you could make the case, which you have. Where the rubber meets the road, I doubt most reasonable people would understand these uses of hell as anything more than cheap political rhetoric which reduces the substantive value of their message. I abhor Christian nationalism, and because I do, I want to use the same yardstick I am measuring by. That said, keep up the good work!
Thanks for reading and engaging John! It’s a fair question on the use of mere rhetoric, appreciate you shining some light across the chasm of academic inquiry and common use!
Yes, have heard my US family use the T-shirt understanding of heaven as exclusionist and hell as inclusionist. How did white evangelical theology get so twisted and degraded? Will they have to experience fleeing their homeland before they can grasp what's happening in our world?
I was searching for something to help me understand Christian Nationalists view of hell. This has been a very helpful article.
I'm a member of a "Fans of David Bentley Hart" Facebook group. Hart may be one of the most famous "universalist" Christian theologians (perhaps to underscore his universalism, Hart sometimes refers to himself as a "Vedantic Christian", to emphasize his love and respect for the theistic traditions in Vedantic philosophy.
Well, a Christian Nationalist showed up the other day, to express his belief that everyone who believes as Hart does will end up in Hell, being tortured for all eternity.
I visited this fellow's FB page, and first, asked him a question I often ask fundamentalists, "What does the phrase "In God we live and move and have our being" mean?" Hart takes this in a sense common to Vedanta, Sufism, Kabbalah, Christian mystics, etc, that the Supreme Divinity is all pervading, and resides in a special way deep within our hearts, with whom we can commune as eternal souls, and of course, goes hand in hand with the title of his book, "All Will Be Saved."
This fellow - I'll call him Joe - said the verse simply meant that we should follow Christ and be His disciple. This was so bizarre and such a non sequitur that I tried to engage him further, in as polite a way as possible.
I made a special effort over the 8 years I lived in Greenville, SC to talk with students at the fundamentalist Bob Jones University, who were always unfailingly polite. In my 50 years as a New Yorker, I don't think I ever met anyone in person who I knew to be a fundamentalist. I was so baffled and startled by their views (from young earth creationism to the idea that all who don't believe as they do will end up in hell) that I spoke with them quite regularly.
But honestly, I don't think in my 70+ years I've ever come across someone who spoke with such passion about how those who don't believe as he does (which comes to close to 8 billion people) would end up in Hell.
I later asked my friends at the Hart FB group - "Is this really some kind of sadistic schadenfreude? Is he really taking such pure delight in thinking of all the suffering and torture that will be inflicted on all who don't think of him? (I was particularly concerned as the nominee for Defense secretary seems to share this belief)
I heard one charitable explanation, and I wonder if this makes sense to y'all. Someone said often people whose lives have fallen apart, who then become "saved by Christ," are actually anxious that others believe as they do, and express their grave concern by warning people if they aren't saved as well, they'll end up in terrible suffering."
That sounded nice to me, but I've just heard too many fundamentalists seem to express a kind of subtle (or not so subtle) delight in the fact that non believers will suffer eternal torment.
IT's like that Trump supporter 1 year into his first administration, who said, "He's hurting the wrong people."
I wonder what others think about this attitude among Christian nationalists. Do you take a more charitable reading of their concern about non believers going to hell, take them as being more malicious, or some combination of the two?
Hi Don, thanks for reading & responding here. I grew up in BJU-adjacent fundamentalism. There was no shortage of hell talk, in preaching and dramas and everything else. Going a little deeper into that, elements of what is now called "Christian nationalism" I inherited as "Bible-believing Christianity." So these are my people in so many ways. What I can say is that in these spaces there's a commitment to the "reality of hell" that can issue in a lot of ways and is usually contradictory. Just like you've pointed out, I witnessed an earnest "solidarity" that emerged from what I often perceived to be a desire for people's best interests. If you hold, as many do, that eternal conscious torment is the default destiny of every living person absent an ascent to the name of Jesus, well that's not something to take lightly. And the urgency of efforts to evangelize are certainly part of that. But this very same "reality of hell" that is given preeminence in these spaces often issues in the political in a contradictory way, often couched in an insidious cavalier prejudice that holds out hell as a sort of "you'll get yours" sentiment. This sentiment reinforces in-group comfort and belonging. But at a more primal level, mapping doctrines of salvation across political difference is a wildly egregious form of theological malpractice. It's often just this simple. So when it comes to hell-dogma, I think the contradiction you're illuminating across this set of experiences is inherent to the particular understanding of the doctrine itself in these spaces. There's no resolving the contradiction without actually contending with the dogma of hell in Christian confession.
Most of the time we are on the same page, Jared. Academically, I can see where you could make the case, which you have. Where the rubber meets the road, I doubt most reasonable people would understand these uses of hell as anything more than cheap political rhetoric which reduces the substantive value of their message. I abhor Christian nationalism, and because I do, I want to use the same yardstick I am measuring by. That said, keep up the good work!
Thanks for reading and engaging John! It’s a fair question on the use of mere rhetoric, appreciate you shining some light across the chasm of academic inquiry and common use!
Thanks for this Jared.
Thanks for reading!
“My Kingdom is not of this world.” - Jesus